Rejtélyek Középföldéről

Rabyn írta: Aragorn azért élt olyan sokáig mert Dúnadán volt..

amani írta: vagyishogy a númenori uralkodók leszármazottja, Elroson keresztül pedig Earendilé és Elwingé

Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.
Actually in the imagination of this story we are now living on a physically round Earth. But the whole 'legendarium' contains a transition from a flat world (or at least an ????????? with borders all about it) to a globe: an inevitable transition, I suppose, to a modern 'myth-maker' with a mind subjected to the same 'appearances' as ancient men, and partly fed on their myths, but taught that the Earth was round from the earliest years. So deep was the impression made by 'astronomy' on me that I do not think I could deal with or imaginatively conceive a flat world, though a world of static Earth with a Sun going round it seems easier (to fancy if not to reason).
The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Númenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition. That seems to me so fundamental to 'mythical history' – whether it has any kind of basis in real history, pace Saurat and others, is not relevant – that some version of it would have to come in.
I have written an account of the Downfall, which you might be interested to see. But the immediate point is that before the Downfall there lay beyond the sea and the west-shores of Middle-earth an earthly Elvish paradise Eressëa, and Valinor the land of the Valar (the Powers, the Lords of the West ), places that could be reached physically by ordinary sailing-ships, though the Seas were perilous. But after the rebellion of the Númenóreans, the Kings of Men, who dwelt in a land most westerly of all mortal lands, and eventually in the height of their pride attempted to occupy Eressëa and Valinor by force, Númenor was destroyed, and Eressëa and Valinor removed from the physically attainable Earth: the way west was open, but led nowhere but back again-for mortals.
Elendil and his sons were the chiefs of the small 'faithful' party that took no part in the attempt to seize world-power and immortality by force, and they escaped the drowning of Númenor, and were borne east on a great storm, and cast up on the west-shores of Middle-earth, where they established their realms. But there was no going back for them or any mortal men; hence their nostalgic mood.
But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)

Sorel írta: Én mindaddig, amig nem hallottam az előadásodat, azt gondoltam, hogy eljutni Valinorba egyet jelent a halhatatlansággal. De ott nagyon határozottan azt mondtad, hogy Frodó és társai nem nyertek örök életet az elhajózással.

Ancalimon írta: Alteriesse: Ezt így szó szerint sehol sem szerepel a szövegekben. Csak az, hogy a törp asszonyokat nagyon nehéz megkülönböztetni a férfiaktól mivel, mind hangjuk, mind külsejük nagyon hasonló. Ebből vontuk le közösen azt a következtetést a Törp topikban, hogy akkor biztos szakálluk is van.

Úgy tűnik ezt a következtetést vonta le P.J. is, mert ezt a szöveget mondja Gimli a filmben.

Ancalimon írta:

amanibhavam írta: na igen, de a törpnőkről is csak annyit tudunk, hogy voltak, és hogy annyira hasonlítottak a férfiakra, hogy normál halandó nem tudta őket megkülönböztetni...

Aranyos jelenet a Két Torony filmben, amikor ezt szó szerint elmondja Gimli, és hozzáteszi, hogy ennek valószínűleg a szakáll az oka...

Ancalimon írta:

Giltintur írta: Üdvözlet!
A 3-ai ünnep kapcsán merült fe bennem a kérdés:
-Ugyebár a tündéknek, ainuknak, törpöknek, embereknek, hobbitoknak, a rendkívüli lényeknek(óriás sasok, entek) és ezek eltorzított fajtáinak van lelkük.
-Ugyebár a a lélek(fea) megmutatója az a képesség, hogy beszélni tudnak.
: Akkor hogy lehet az, hogy Radagast beszélgetett az állatokkal. Ezekszerint az állatoknak is van feá-ja?
Giltintur

Hát ez egy roppant fogós kérdés.
Namarie: Tolkien mester világosan elkülönítette az állatokat, mint "lélekkel" nem rendelkezőket, Illuvatar gyermekeitől.

Talán az lehet a megoldás, hogy a megkülönböztetés a tagolt, fogalmakkal operáló "valódi" beszéd volt. Míg Radagast az állatokat a saját szintjükön volt képes megérteni, illetve megértetni magát velük.

Ezzel persze némiképp ellentmond a Hobbitban szereplő Rigó és Holló (különösen az utóbbi), akik érezhetően "értelmes" módon kommunikáltak...

Van valakinek valami értelmes magyarázata?